The Liberated Educator

Care, Propping Up, Time For a Check Up.

• Ken Shelton and Dee Lanier • Season 2 • Episode 3

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One reason why Dee and Ken are able to easily have compelling conversations is because they genuinely care about one another. So, for this episode, the fellas talk about men's health and health in general in regards.

C: Care
P: Propping Up
T: Time for a check up.

Music produced by Nicop Records, reuse for profit is prohibited.
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[dee]:

Y. I just got to say, I think we got the most fire intro out of all of them.

[ken]:

Yeah, I mean, we might be biased about it, but you know that's okay.

[dee]:

Everybody has bias. That's part of the conversation,

[ken]:

course, part of the conversation that' right. Yeah,

[dee]:

but on a real

[ken]:

that thats fire. we got to get Janckie Jake up on here too.

[dee]:

right right, have him free. St. for

[ken]:

In fact, I remember we try to get him on when you and I were hanging out in Charleston, South Carolina back in the summer, but unately out of town. And to add to that, you and I are going to be hanging out together later this week in Ashville North Carolina. So for our listeners, D and I are listeners, D and I, One of these days we going record where all of us are sitting at the same table, Puintended, Since that's part of the intro.

[dee]:

Yeah, Yeah, I think we this full fledg conversation about race in the middle of Texass. let's do that.

[ken]:

Yeah, that's right. let's do that,

[dee]:

Let's do that.

[ken]:

but yeah, like real chalk. I think it's important for us to add to the beginning of this particular episode that it is November, also known as November, also known as Men's health awareness Month, And wow, I know the focus is on men's health. I also want to emphasize all the listeners. Please make sure you're taking care of yourself and it's not just going to do yoga or the self care things, it's also going and getting all of the different functions that make you who you are checked so that no problems prop up unexpectedly, and uh, and if something does come up, You catch it early.

[dee]:

Without a doubt. that's that's good. It's also uh, known as No Vi beard, which means I'm trying to again. another O. B. Brian is all love. Just show it off like look. look at his manly,

[ken]:

He got that Barry white beard going right now

[dee]:

mainly beard. Im.

[ken]:

and it has a very white

[dee]:

yeah,

[ken]:

voice too.

[dee]:

anth.

[ken]:

thank you. There we go.

[dee]:

appreciate it. appreciate it like Anthony Hamilton. Mine only grows in sections.

[ken]:

Well, mine grows is, just at one point it was all pepper. Then it was salt and pepper, and now it's mostly salt. Yeah, so I'm not trying to get

[dee]:

just sal.

[ken]:

all salty, but um, and by the way, I also want to also want to add um. Since

[dee]:

look,

[ken]:

we're talking about the month, Uh, to our first nation's anddigous family, Uh, it is also indigenous people's mind, so all of you are not only seeing, heard and loved,

[dee]:

yep.

[ken]:

but uh, I want to stress the fact that Um, it's because of you that many of us are able to be who we are and do what we do. So, and I think that

[dee]:

Mhm.

[ken]:

recognition should extend beyond just November.

[dee]:

matter of fact, it was new that' without a doubt, it was you. Actually, I think, um, it was in a workshop that I was who highlighted that we should acknowledge the land in which we inhabit,

[ken]:

you should,

[dee]:

And uh that that's this, which is a really good thing.

[ken]:

you should know who the native peoples are to the land that you currently reside. But I, uh, I think it's interesting to add that I had either the privilege of being a speaker for a science organization that's based in Ottawa, Canada, and they had mentioned that they were doing their land acknowledgements and I just followed it up saying Okay, here's a question that I think you all should consider And I'm not calling you out is something to consider, Because it something that I have. Have. I try to remain mindful of as well. How does your acknowledgement and your work extend beyond just simply the words that you recite? Are you making sure that native voices are included in the curriculum? Are you making sure that you? uh, are I

[dee]:

Mhm.

[ken]:

understand the uniqueness of native culture? Are you understanding that the influence is that that the influences on all of us today are in many cases a direct derivative of native culture? And I know D and our producer Briryan, I, I believe both of you saw where I started calling people out for praising Masow's hierarchy of needs, and I was like. Uh, yeah, you should know that that was appropriated from the Blackfoot peoples. It was appropriated and westernized, So

[dee]:

Yeah, yeah, you and I talk about that at length, cause, Um, I had first heard that from. Uh, Doctor Jeffrey Duncan Andrada, and then you were like, No, I. I talk about that a lot too, And then Uh, I know, I'm including that in my book. I can only imagine. of course, you probably dedicated the whole chapter of that on yours, but appropriation and exploitation and the worst, I I hope that we just created. Uh, the sort. Wait, what are they talking about, and they go google it and A, and all I would say is

[ken]:

I did a block posting on. Yeah, I did a block posting on cultural

[dee]:

just compare compared.

[ken]:

appropriation versus appreciation. I want to say a couple of years ago, and by the way, that post is still

[dee]:

Yeah,

[ken]:

timely, practical and relevant right now. I would call October cultural appropriation month, especially because of what generally happens at the end of October, but you, even, you had the incident with the math teacher. Uh, yeah, so now I think it's important and honestly

[dee]:

Mhm,

[ken]:

one of the things that it came up in a recent conversation with an educator that said that she was definitive in talking about the Blackfoot people's approach to well beinge wellness and community health, or you know, group health, if you will, versus Uh, Maslow and I said, If you'll notice that Uh, that individual needs never supersede the collective good, and the collective good is for cultural perpetuity, And and, and it goes against the whole idea of rugged

[dee]:

Yp,

[ken]:

individualism, and I really wish schools and I believe. It or not I have a whole chapter of my book dedicated to this is to recognize that our learning environments must be cooperative, not competitive, and that when you approach it from uh, an individual affirmation of individual needs to support the collective good. you will find that not only does that accelerate actual learning, but my argument, Uh, for anyone who's against that is name one major social challenge or problem that exists that existed or exists that is solved by a singular individual, just name one No, And and that's my point.

[dee]:

not going happen. Yes, so if you do your research, so so for listen, If you do your research, look at. look at them side by side, meaning the pyramids, the one that was created by the Black Foot Nation, and the one that wasro um from Mazloff, and look at the direction of the pyramids. look at the distinctions.

[ken]:

Yeah,

[dee]:

See what is at the pinnacle and what is at the base, and you'll see the difference between uh, what is Westernized and American culture in comparison to a collective culture, which also, I think, ties back to part of what we were wanting to talk about today because you said it prior to recording in discussing health and not just men's health, but in particular our health as black men, And so I would love to explore that conversation a little bit further, speaking to the the need for us to have this conversation as it relates to us. As a community and not just oh K. those are your personal decisions and whatever you do, and Brian knows your personal decisions. whatever you do. Um, but instead for us to talk about about it more collectively for sure

[ken]:

I, I wholeheartedly agree, Uh,

[dee]:

about it more collectively for sure.

[ken]:

I will lead in to some degree of the conversation with the fact that Uh, and it's not something that I say lightly. that for our listeners, if they don't know, I had the fortunate privilege of playing football in college and I am fifty one years old. and to this particular point of my life, Uh, nine of my former college teammates have passed away, and of that nine six of them, Uh, were from heart disease, And so for me it's it's There's

[dee]:

Wow,

[ken]:

two parts to it. There is a part that you need to recognize that some of the things that we do, uh, may not be conducive or longevity, and also the whole idea around. In fact, I'm going to share this story be cause. I think it's this will help help provide a a narrative context here. So my my college

[dee]:

isssssssssssssssssssssss.

[ken]:

coach passed away Uh few months ago, and Uh, that was his second battle with cancer, so he was diagnosed with cancer about two years ago. Uh, fough. It all went into remission, Then it came back and it came back with Uh, with a major vengeance, and forest, and so a couple of my former team maates, one of which was a very, very very. I believe it's in a hall of fame, popular N Ffl quarterback as well, Um, for those that don't know I am this old. It was Troy Akman, Uh, he told a story. So we went to a function that was a like a memorial for Coach Donhu But this function was only former players and coaches and so Troy was one of three of my former teammates that said they spoke to Coach Don Hue literally the day before he passed, And he knew that the next day was at. He was pretty much at peace with that. And and when they told this story, I just couldn't help out, but look at Ma of my team. Maate said it, either put on way or just way or just way, or just preparing for a game as team Maates, and it's a phrase that I use in many of my d e I workshops and it iss called Loving accountability. I'm going to hold you accountable and I'm going to encourage you support you and even challenge you. But I'm doing it from a loving perspective, and so I share with several of my teammates how I've shifted my diet significantly away from the consumption of meat, and they looked at me like I was crazy and I'm like Na. here's a thing. we have to deprom ourselves. A Lot of the things that we were taught when we play. No longer. Should you be thinking in terms of I'm going to consume a forty eight ounce stateak, two pounds of potatoes loaded up with butter, Because I need to eat that way. You don't need to do that. In fact, it was all wrong even back then, and so my whole point in sureing that story was several of my team. Maates were like, Okay, What have you done? And so I have a whole

[dee]:

she.

[ken]:

Texan message group where I'm like, give me the number and then whenever I'm cooking something, I'm go send you out a recipe. I'll send you a picture of what it looks like and I'm like An. And and the whole point is not for me to call you out, not for me Make you feel bad. It's I see you. I hear you. I love you. You are a teammate of mine. We know what it' like to challenge each other, So now here's the. It's now. No longer. The game is on the field. The game is with the numerical value associated with our age, and and and I even share with them many of my Te teammates, especially one in particular. I literally talk to them five days before he had a massive heart attack, and I was like dog. I got you. We're going to talk every week. The first thing you'll do is start giving up soda. Then we're going to work our way through some of the next thing when it comes to eating. If you going out to dinner, send me a picture of the menu and I'll share with you some things that you should consider ordering that will be good and that you'll be able to begin that transition. So I think all of that ties in even when it comes to education and educators is uh. in. in fact, I've normalized this with my keynoes now all the time. I never begin a queun out without asking the audience. please share either in the chattifus remote or in person with your. Uh, you know, your the folks sitting near you, something you've done in the last month for self care, and the whole idea around that is to normalize the conversations around self care, and also my whole goal I is to normalize it. but also you might hear an idea. You might get an idea from something somebody else has done that you might say. Oh, you know what. That's something I could do.

[dee]:

That's good. That's good, and some of that is even just what you said right, Like just normalizing having conversation around care. And if that is happening within community, then people will share more or good ideas of what have you was thinking about? I was on a call. This is like maybe three, four months ago now with Um, colleague, co founder of company I work for and friend. So whatever order you want to put it in with with Jason Green, and we jumped on a call and I was like, Was good, He. I just finished my little workout. I was like, Oh, that's what's up, and Um, and I know, like you always talk about working out and I, I grew up an athlete. I worked out vigorously all the way up until

[ken]:

Hey, safe,

[dee]:

recently've been having a lot more back issues and him just saying that I just worked recently've been having a lot more back issues and him just saying that I just worked out and then he was like. Do you work out that question? out and then he was like. Do you work out that question? That's all it was was a question and I told him I said, man, I've been having so many back issues lately. It feels like everything. after a while hurts and after I got off that call, he never said anything. I just thought you know what, That feels like an excuse. That felt like an excuse. It just felt like I just made an out for myself and I and I just determined I said. You know what I'm gonna get back in the habit of working out every day, even if it's something little or small, But him, here's the most important part for me. I'm gonna listen to my body because having an athletic background right and doing track for half of my years, and you and football and basketball here and there, having this thought that if it's not level ten, it's not anything right, and or having a worko of the day, and then feeling guilty of Ah, I can't really do that. I can't do that. But instead saying you know what every day is about listening to your body, so if the habit is, I'm gonna work out every single day. But if when I wake up if my back tells me you know what. that's not working today? That

[ken]:

right,

[dee]:

exercise you can't do that. Okay, modify, do something different, but don't say I'm gonna do nothing. I, and that simple little thing has helped me tremendously, and I think I recently told

[ken]:

Yep,

[dee]:

Jason that it was all prompt from him just mentioning that he worked out and him asking a question. Do you work out that was it? so that community collective good just by

[ken]:

it. it's's super helpful. And again, the the idea is that

[dee]:

checking on one another, even those ways super helpful.

[ken]:

whoever the messenger is just to be mindful of the fact that if they're bringing this up to me is not to make me feel bad, and it's not to shame me, because if they wanted to sha me, they could come up with other stuff. For sure. that's clearly shaming. It's okay. I care about you enough that I either see something or I want to share something, Uh, so that it ideally can be something that you might be able to take and utilize Uh for your own personal, as well as a collective good. I know there was a group uh, with a district that I gave a keno to you That I. They followed up with me and basically thanked me for asking that question. It's like the whole, I can't. I think it's the whole English department. What they do is they make sure at least once or twice a week. During lunch they go on a couple of mile walk together, and I was like that's awesome. I might because one. uh, you're getting fresh air. You're getting some son, of course, weather permitting, but too, I'm like. And how often do you all even talk about work when you're doing that walking? and they're like. You know what? Not very often I'm like. See, now you're doing the mental and the physical. That's okay now. I'm not saying that every school has to do that. In fact, I would actually say don't intentionally set that up, because then it seems that it is' not genuine. But say here are some options for everyone to do. Um. and, And and recognizing I know a buddy of mine, he's a principal of a school and we were engaged in similar dialogue and my conversation with him was more around. How do we take care of ourselves between? Uh, you know, it's no secret that like I share what my age is, and what are all the uh, preventative health things that I have to do at my current age because of how old I am. I. I leave it at that because I'm sure

[dee]:

S.

[ken]:

the audience can put the pieces of that puzzle together. But ultimately, the ho. Yeah, but the. but, but my main point is that we were talking about those things and I said, What are you doing as a site administrator? To encourage your staff? Uh to take care of

[dee]:

use their imaginationssss.

[ken]:

themselves. What are your words? And now what are your actions? And I remember. he texted me later that week and thank me for asking that question because he had queried, some of the staff that were just they were kind of burned out burnt out mode Because keep in mind, school started mid August. You had. Uh, you had the Labor Day break. You had a break at the very end of September, Then you have nothing essentially until Veterans Day, Then then, of course, um, the uh. the break coming up later in November, but the whole point was he was like they haven't really had any breaks and I know some of them been. Uh, been kind of uh, overly stressed and stuff like that. So he said that that week they were supposed to have a faculty meeting and he went over the P. A system and said, I know we're supposed to have a faculty meeting today. What I want you all to do is instead of us spending an hour after school for a faculty meeting, I'm going to send you an email, but I also print it out and put your mailbox. I want you to take this, take the hour, and you've got another hour of your time and I want you to do something that doesn't involve grading papers, lesson planning or anything. Just go do something for you. Uh, even if it means W, a couple of you getting together, a group of getting together and going into the cafe just to enjoy some tea together or to your coffee, and he shared with me that part of his catalyst for that awareness was the dialogue we had and I said, And Let me guess you got some emails of thank you And he did get some and I'm like I can tell you right now, Even those that didn't email you, they appreciate the fact that they were seen and heard.

[dee]:

that is, is definitely true. and you

[ken]:

Yes,

[dee]:

made me think about also, how often

[ken]:

Jasonmi.

[dee]:

administrators. you know. when I think about like a a model administrator, somebody never had the privilege to work for but work alongside with different things. And uh, we got to get them on the pot For sure, Jason Marky, right, like to somebody who's somebody who's just super aware. That is the homey, but giving your teachers both opportunity and options and making sure that it's both right, because sometimes if you give teachers opportunity and you say you can use this time. However, you like knowing that we are conditioned in a certain way. We're like, Oh great. I'm going to use this time to do more work right like okay, So you heard that you were? You feel that you were burnt out. You were given opportunity to do something different,

[ken]:

Yeah,

[dee]:

but instead you use

[ken]:

well,

[dee]:

that time

[ken]:

let's add one quick note, it an email and he printed it out and put in their mailboxes.

[dee]:

in the very thing that could further your burn out. So I love what the amen that you're speaking of like basically said, This meeting could have been an email and watched

[ken]:

Let me stress that real quick. correct. let me stress that real quick. And here's a

[dee]:

this. it is an email. So let's take that burden away. Let's take that bur away.

[ken]:

reason. why and I even set like your brilliant and said, Correct me if

[dee]:

Sure

[ken]:

I'm wrong. Part of the reason why he printed it out

[dee]:

that's that's yeah. yeah, Oh, so then there, and you also got the option. Yeah, go go

[ken]:

is wait for it. Wait for it. If I send it in an email. What' a likelihood that you're now going to say? Oh, I got some other emails. I need to check and now you're back in worker mode. That's right. that's right.

[dee]:

right right. I'm sitting in front of my computer and guess where all my work is done at my computer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I love the idea of of giving people. The other thing is real Frustrating Is is if you get without that opportunity, Let's say you get

[ken]:

Mhm.

[dee]:

the email. you get the the self care options that exist and it's like great. but if you don't give me time to actually do any of these things, then act all you've done is frustrate me right. So it's it's both. It's give me options and opportunity, and in the most important part is if you do that with community. So even if I'm individually kind of stuck, I don't know what am I supposed to do with this or what could I do? All it takes is somebody else to say hey, let's go do this. Okay, cool suoot. up. Let's go to the gym. Let's go ball. Let's go do this. Let's

[ken]:

Yeah, yeah,

[dee]:

just go for that walk. When's the last time you've seen outside 'cause I don't know about a lot of the teachers that listen, but I know that most of the classrooms I worked in were cinder block walls right. I hardly saw sunlight. It and the times that he did was a. because I was on duty right So that was a different kind of stress. So it's like great outside. I'm getting some some light, getting some vitamin D, but I'm also having to continue to work and deal with conflict on different levels. or what have you? so so actually giving that space giving up options. I feel like Victoria is always in our ear. Even though she's not on this particular pit. She'd have the options like you should be having ' do this, this, this, this, this, and this, but, um, again, sometimes it just requires your community being given that space and it being a part of the community building. I, I can almost guarantee that the first time something like that is done, everyone doesn't take a advantage of it either, because they don't want to. They don't know how I would have you. But if you make it a part of your culture then it actually becomes more in the positive of we're We're supposed to be leaving our desk right now.

[ken]:

above of the arm,

[dee]:

We're supposed to be going doing something to take care of ourselves right now. What you're doing is actually the wrong thing, because too often re reward the things that burn people out. and we say that they've gone. They've they've gone above and beyond, Act. Actually, what they're doing is is is harming themselves and you

[ken]:

so

[dee]:

and I talk about this a lot, especially

[ken]:

yes, and

[dee]:

thinking about the many reasons why Blackmales find themselves outside of the school setting is because of burn

[ken]:

with we're If we're intentional around building in the time to be able to do all of

[dee]:

out, and that being another one of them.

[ken]:

these things, it doesn't. it will. It will eliminate, or at least mitigate the appearances of it being performative for one and I. I, so a friend of mine was applying for a job at several schools and she and I were talking about. You know, just not just a resume, but interviews and stuff like that and I. I. I basically put her on the spot and I said Listen. let's pretend I'm a side administrator and I say to you because this has happened to people. I know well, we want a candidate that' is going to go above and beyond. We expect we expect our teachers to. uh, you know, when school ends at three, we expect you to leave the building no earlier than four, and I said, What's your? What's your response to that As she? and and and she really had to give it some thought. And she was like. Well, I mean, if if that's the culture of the school that I said No, that's not necessarily cultureal school. That's the expectations of the people doing the hiring and I go. And what they're really saying you, is your contracted hours aren't enough time for you to do what we want you to do. And so therefore we want to com andear more of your time for you to do what we want you to do. And that's where I get into the whole thing around some of the narratives that I see around the quote unquote reimagine education. I. I, I don't even like the use of that word remagine. I like the use of the word dismantle and abolish. If you cannot perform the essential functions of your job within your contracted hours, then guess what it's time to change that schedule that's within your contract and ours. not ask you to go above and beyond taking a sick day, worked until midnight, worked over a weekend, worked over holidays.

[dee]:

That's

[ken]:

That all of those things are a catalyst for burn

[dee]:

every to every educator that is listeningise hand, if you have

[ken]:

all,

[dee]:

taken a sick day in order to gra papers.

[ken]:

and my whole thing is, My whole thing is like. That's why my whole thing is. My whole thing is like why And here's a thing. Here's one for you. See. The Audi can't see it. but I'm leaning in now.

[dee]:

Y,

[ken]:

The expectation should never be that If you have another hour given back to you of your time that you use it for something that someone else. Des. you are productive. If I got an hour and I just you know what. I want. to just put my feet up on my desk and play some jazz and close my eyes in my classroom until it time leave. I should be able to do that.

[dee]:

So this is ten. This is ta hand. That one about sense of urgency is one whichco is always encroaching upon me from others, Right, and even the people who I, since this coming from, I give it a pass. Be you are product of the things the environment which you've learned to survive in. But now you're trying to push that on me as well is you are literally overtressing yourself and you are trying to pass that stress on to me. So I, I think about so frequently how certain um deadlines are set that are completely arbitrary. Now it's one thing if you say, because you know the counter could be stated. You know deadlines are important because quote, in the real world, you have to meet them in order to get something out, blah, blahah, blah, And, and that that's true, But that's not even what we're talking about. I'm talking about. what are the things that are arbitrary. That deadlines are set out of thin air, and you, when you ask the question for what purpose like what? So then what it's

[ken]:

Mhm. Mhm,

[dee]:

but no, no, No, this has to happen. That needs to happen by this time. And so everyone rushes in order to put together with is frankly oftentime sloppy work. In order to say we did it, we met

[ken]:

Ha

[dee]:

that deadline. and so whether it be the Es of urgency, or it be this concept of you need to have quantity or quality or

[ken]:

has two conditions.

[dee]:

both

[ken]:

Yeah,

[dee]:

Put together. Those are stress right. They're stress stressess, and you start thinking about conditions of characteristics of white supremacy culture. And then you consider when you add on top of that the collective trauma in which we have experienced as a people within this country, historically, and currently you add yourre. What you're adding is stress on top of trauma right. So when you look at okay, why is it that men typically die earlier than women of heart failure, heart disease, Right, and you look at some of the ways in which we've can been conditioned societally literally toxic masculineity, even relating to how we operate within the work culture, I should say, especially how we operate within world culture. And then you add on to the trauma of all of the experience of being black in America, Right. and then you learn all of, or you add into it, Uh, some of the things that are related to the ways in which we cope with trauma Right. And so that's where a lot of the unhealthy foods come in. That's where. Um, unfortunately, like my father, who, who died much earlier than he should have from alcohol abuse, right you? you have in these coping strategies to these realities that are exhaustively stressful that don't even escape you. if you happen to find yourself as

[ken]:

no,

[dee]:

middle class or upper middle class within this cast system in America, Because it's it's not far away, right. It's even if I have moved to a different zip code. All of my family members and all of the experience that they are having is still part of my reality as my family, on top of everything that I have experienced within my own life, as well as what is within our d n A. from what we've had to experience historically, and then you add on top of that some boss who

[ken]:

yeah,

[dee]:

is creating arbitrary

[ken]:

I.

[dee]:

deadlines to something that doesn't even have to happen.

[ken]:

I. yeah. I mean, I would. I would add if I made two things one. Yes,

[dee]:

Bra out.

[ken]:

you did. I would even add. When you mention your family, think about

[dee]:

so I leaned in on that one.

[ken]:

the the anilary um effects. So so to your point, Even if if it isn't directly affecting me, it's affected my family, which means' indirectly affecting me. So there's an anllary component and my question that I asked the educator. So you mention things like arbitrary deadlines and especially don't have to happen. Look, I, I bring it up in my D work shops, and I think it's something that educators need to be aware of. and and so full disclosure is something that I wasn't aware of for at least the first four to five years that I was in the classroom when you set a deadline for work. What is a point to that deadline? I know that we have marking periods, but what I would encourage everyone listening to do, And this is something that I started to figure out. It was district policy that you had to have at least one graded thing for every four hours of instructional time, so basically almost one graded item per week. So when you start doing all these deadlines and all this stuff, I think about how much a a stress it puts on you. that's self induced, and how much out of stress it puts on your learners And and then, to your point, I remember that man. I don't remember what year I was in in classroom. Probably my thirteenth or fourteenth year are probably both when I really started to shift. Uh, the way the students did

[dee]:

Y. Yep,

[ken]:

projects. Uh, adding to the grading every project had, Uh involved the three hours when they were done. Uh, because I said, Look, we have to have. you have to have a a definitive deadline per se because you got to you got to be able to manage your time leading up to that point. You can't just say Alt, turnn it in whatever, Okay, because because what that does is, that can be a catalyst for procrastination. But I should add, and maybe this is for another episode. I actually have an argument where procrastination can actually be good. Uh, yeah, okay, so those you are not not able to see A D. Both his eyebrows just went up. I, I will. I'll make that pitch during this. Well, oh, okay, we're going to have to bring that open the next episode. So I do have an example. the definitive example where procrastination can be good, because I have that. I. I had that awareness, but at any rate, my main point, as you do, have to have a

[dee]:

I'm in agreement. I'm in agreement with you,

[ken]:

definitive time frame in which you are trying to accomplish something. so it forces you, if you will, or it supports you rather than for support you in managing your time. identification of resources and then distribution of that time by that particular, if you will, deadline. But one of the things that I used to do with students was I like, Okay, What you need to do is estimate the time out of time it takes to a project. What resource and supports do you need? I'm going to hold you to your estimation, and then when you are finished, we will go through the three R process before grading, which is reflection, revision and resubmission. to ensure that is your best works possible at that time. The minute you say everyone, one has to turn it in by ten p M. on Friday, you're going to reward those at that are good at managing their good at managing their time. What is the quality of the works that are being produced as a result of that? and to me again, going back to you, it's quality over quantity. If I've got to doe the district policy of one graded thing per week, then you know what. I'm going to take the project and deviate up into segments and each segment will constitute a great bingo.

[dee]:

and it's about learning right like I think about how we. So why we say we got an education Oftenims because we want. However you want to term it right in making better citizens of students. Or what have you make a difference by investing in others so that they can make a difference. However, it's worded, But what ends up happening is we then get caught within the system of education and then next thing you know what everything is. urgent, everything has to be a written word. Um, progress is Is is evaluated by quantity, not quality. Like all of these things, just start dominating what we do and we start forcing that collectively within our students. and then they of course reproduce the same and there's just I think, probably the biggest. There's two things that that come out to it. I think it's related to this overall conversation.

[ken]:

Hey

[dee]:

The first one being is, it's not honest, right, especially when you're dealing with things that are new and new challenges. It's not honest that you are learning and figuring things out. and so you cannot say. this is the way either or binary to do something that has yet to be discovered. That's not true problem solving. Uh. but then secondly, if it's anything that's related to relationships, that's where also it's not. It's like that's actually abusive if you are not being responsive to the needs of students in different ways, or where the situation may change. Um, at least an acknowledgement of those things, and then saying okay, let's make some adjustments based on what we've now learned.

[ken]:

eight.

[dee]:

Uh, but then you know, most importantly, and I think you just spoke to it is is that it's that trophying in that hero making of the individual who was able to quote get it done by themselves versus seeing the person who is able to help the collective or the whole, all accomplish goals together. And so, instead of just rewarding that individual, and if we can take, even those things are bringing in and saying, how does that relate to self care? And how does that relate to Um. Administrators giving opportunity and options for people to take care of themselves. And then how does that relate to not just an individual black males re specifically speaking to when to make this comment, checking on their physical health, but having those conversations about that so that we could say you know what. There's not just a right or wrong, either, or whatever way to do this. But if we are committed to doing it, it's relational. We're going to talk about it. We're going to support one another. We're going to help one another. We're going to make those adjustments if necessary, because the in

[ken]:

Oh, get em, Go get him and uh, Hopefully this will be a catalyst for the for all of you

[dee]:

goal is still what we're very much after. and you started this conversation, kid, so I

[ken]:

listening. Get the checkus check up on each other, check up on yourself. Let's make

[dee]:

appreciate you so much Before we record it. You would just give a much love to me and

[ken]:

sure that we, uh, we support our collective good, because ultimately, Ive based the

[dee]:

be, and you motivated me, man. I, I'm like. Oh, you boy, got to go get get the check

[ken]:

value and the impact of education on the collective, not the individuals.

[dee]:

ups. Uh, so appreciate you, love you, man. So what I think I heard you saying was collective liberation.